If these two scriptures are talking about the same thing, First; state why those who say that they are Christians think that they are good apart from experiencing the Holy Spirit. Second; state why they think that they cannot prophecy. What is the Spirit saying to YOU?
Ephesians 1
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
1 John 2:27 (King James Version)
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
No condemnation!
L,J,P&HG
Dave
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when you come together, every one of you has a psalm, a doctrine, a tongue, a revelation, an interpretation
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Well..hummm..Yes the 2 scriptures are indeed related, and I believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is for all those who are truly saved ande seek Him and desire all there is to be had of Him. Unfortunately a lot of people believe that everyone receives the Holy Spirit at the point of Salvation, and they don't believe that the speaking in toungues is the inital evidence that one has received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, where as personally I do. The sticking point for a lot of folks that I have encountered, is the praying, talking, speaking in toungues. Therefore if they don't believe that toungues is for today, then a lot don't believe that a person prophesying is for today either. I disagree with that.
The testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy, and prophecy will always be found in the Word of God, and line up with the Word of God. Many prophesy from their own hearts, true Prophesy as I already said will be in agreement with the written Word of God.
I have also witness in my years as a Christian, people running from prophet to prophet seeking a personal word, when they should be seeking God themselves, for what He has to say to them.
Thanks for the chance to share.
God Bless
Helen B
I once attended a church where the pastor was a very strong, charismatic (in the worldly sense as well) personality. It was not possible to hear, or receive teaching from any source outside the church, and he was the only one who could correct and rebuke. I once suggested this scripture to him (1 John 2:27) and he saw it as me being rebellious and questioning his leadership....such is the state of many of these churches.
In a healthy, Spirit-led group of believers, all should be receiving from the Lord privately and personally, and then when coming together, we should be on the same wavelength, able to impart to one another and to confirm what the Spirit has been speaking.
I now attend an independent Baptist church, one of the few in Australia I think, and the pastor is a missionary from South Carolina. I know that Baptists don't believe in the act of the baptism of the Spirit, so on that point I quietly disagree .... however, sometimes I think it is variance based on terminology. This dear man and his family are so faithful, and so obviously walk closely and hear from the Spirit. He speaks against Baptists who don't believe in being filled by the Spirit, and I am prepared to quietly compromise on the tongues issue, since Jesus did not say "By their gifts you shall know them" but rather "By their fruit..." Here is a man who manifests a Spirit-filed life without using pentacostal jargon. I have never been in a church where I could know without a doubt that my pastor would lay down his life for me or any one of his flock, and who arrives at the church hours before we do, to pray for each one of us.
I am not sure why I told you all that, Dave! Thanks for the post. Those who are not filled and led by the Spirit in these days, and are not true converts, will not be able to stand in the times to come. They will, in fact, be our enemies. I love reading the testimonies from the underground church, where believers often have nothing except the Lord, and they must hear and obey and depend totally on the Spirit to lead them. Often, in the West, we have so much, that as yet we don't always have need to rely on Him as Provider, Healer or even Teacher, I think. But that will change.
God bless,
Bonny
Helen, I really agree that prophecy and tongues are for today - having said that, so much of what is around is spurious to say the least and we must exercise such discernment, testing all things.
I certnly do agree that tongues and prophacy are for today.Thuogh I have nevr spoken in tongues. I think God has given me some prophetic dreams. I have been around some people that have prayed in tongues and felt increadabul peace and others that have caused me to feal anguish. I have never felt the need to comunicate in tongues. My greatest ability to comunicate with God seams to comes when I am weeping with a broken heart. In this I might as well be speaking in an un known tongue because most people have no clue what I am saying even though I am speaking English. There hearts are to hard. I do speak Hebrew when we recite blessings on Shabbat. And I blow the shofar. It has a language of its own. One question thugh. What if a peron is mute? They could not speak in any tongue.No big deal. Just some thing to think about. Peter
Peter,
For every trial God makes a way. God is not about holding back from those that come to Him in Spirit and in truth. It is in the act of submission to the Holy Spirit that we speak in tongues. The Holy Spirit is gentle and never over powers, but in fact so gentle that we often override him with our unbelief and hardness of heart. It's like buying the field with the pearl of great price, knowing the treasure is there but you must make it your own. Sell all that you have (doubt, fears, your experiences, what you believe and trust God.
I would not trust anyone; prophet, apostle, teacher, evangelist,
pastor or worker of miracles who denies speaking in tongues. If the Holy Spirit does not bear witness to the tongues I would be just as fast to reject them and everything that they have to say. After the second admonition I don't think I would want to talk to them (I am to old and to tired of separating the raisins and the rabbit droppings). Come out and be separate means be separate from anything not pure and holy. Sure there are false tongues, abuses and stupidity abounds, but where else are you going to go, Jesus has the words to eternal life. When the Comforter comes He is the gift, within Him are the gifts of the Spirit, tongues are a sign to those who do believe, unbelievers don't get them. Sometimes it takes a little dying to self to enter in.
L,J,P&HG
Dave
Bonny,
I believe that you are looking for truth. You speak what you have seen, what you believe, but you haven't come to no compromise (it can be lonely). No true pastor of God would lord over God's people. Correction in truth and love would have left you loving the man, as in rebuke a wise man and he (she) will love you for it. A Pharisee at best. No pastor who doesn't speak in tongues has ruled over his flesh to dying to self. While he may be stirred spiritually and possibly mighty in speaking, he is like Apollos, he lacks the Holy Spirit in truth. He says it, but does not live it. A patriot would die for you, a man of God will give you direction to an unquestionable, undeniable relationship with the living God. Past the point of thinking, all the way to knowing.
Loving truth will separate you from many people. Gaining the confidence that God speaks every time you call will more than compensate.
We are simple people of no reputation. We simply believe every word that comes out of the mouth of God. God is the one we all look to. By the way, the path that Jesus left for us. This is the way, walk in it. Ask and you will receive, knock and it will be opened. Seek and you will find. He did not leave us powerless.
L,J,P&HG
Dave
Helen, you said:
I have also witness in my years as a Christian, people running from prophet to prophet seeking a personal word, when they should be seeking God themselves, for what He has to say to them.
I have also. But when people have been taught incorrectly they run to and fro. This issue is addressed here: Jeremiah 23, A Warning For Our Day, a previous post. In the coming times each and everyone who will stand will have to be like Job, Noah and Daniel, confident in there righteousness.
You said:
The sticking point for a lot of folks that I have encountered is the praying, talking, speaking in tongues. Therefore if they don't believe that tongues is for today, then a lot don't believe that a person prophesying is for today either. I disagree with that.
I couldn't agree more completely with you. They are blind, no way to see trouble coming. The pit will be there end. They resist truth at every turn and encourage others to be like them.
Having ears to hear also means that you can tell what is and what isn't from God. By passing along things that are not from God we empower the deceived to deceive others. No one who loves God wants to "consume one another", But there is no more time tom tiptoe to truth. It takes time to have a full load of oil in the lamp of truth.
L,J,P&HG
Dave
Hi Dave, I only just read your recent comment above. I think it is a little unfair to say that I have not come to a place of no compromise. My walk is often very lonely, there are few with whom I can have fellowship; I have experienced that. I realise that just commenting on blogs makes it difficult to know each other, and to sometimes rightly assess a situation. I don't really want to go round in circles on the tongues issue, as I do not wish to be divisive in any way, but I think I did ask in a later comment, 'what about saints such as Hudson Taylor, Charles Finney, George Mueller, to name but a few, who never record that they prayed in tongues, yet there was no doubt at all that they came to a place of complete surrender, and that they were dynamically empowered and indwellt by the Holy Spirit?' I wrote recently (I think in response to Chad) the following:
"In these times there is certainly a call to become increasingly separate from the world. I know for my own part, that I had been a 'churchgoer' for most of my life, although sin and rebellion were ever part of my nature. I desperately wanted more of God, and experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but it was not until twelve years ago that I fell on my face before Him and saw that I was not dead to self, that I did not love Him with my whole heart and that I had never 'been crucified with Christ'. His ways are not our ways and the way He chooses to draw each of us, and how we respond, is uniquely different. Let us continue on to die daily, to come into His presence daily and receive from Him, desiring Him and Him alone. I think we have to remain in that place of desperation, knowing that without Him we are wretched. So many worldly churches crave signs and wonders...well, that's all they'll get, but the greatest wonder of all is the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome sin in a man - and that is something no one can do by human effort."
Thanks Dave,
Bonny
Bonny,
I am sorry if I seem unfair. I only respond to what you wrote.
Salvation is the acceptance of what Jesus did on the cross (Thanks be to God), and the beginning of life. It is the key to becoming a joint heir, a son or daughter. I point out that a son or daughter does the will of God. If Gods will is that all should be Baptized in His Holy Spirit and be lead into all truth and we do not, do you think that we are doing the will of God to be included as a son or daughter? This is not about speaking in tongues, it’s about the confirmation of the evidence of that Baptism. It is necessary to the receiver as confirmation and the hearers as confirmation, though speaking in tongues is only the first step in a developing relationship. Praying in tongues builds up the speaker in that it is humbling and confirms the presence of the Holy Spirit and opens the door to subsequent meetings and experiences with God. Every person who sat under any Apostle of God understood this beyond a shadow of doubt. My words to you are not to a babe in Christ. But to a sister, who appears to me to need confirmation of who she is, what her responsibility is, what truth is, what we should do when we hear truth, understanding what we see. We must judge all things by the Holy Spirit of God, which requires ears to hear. If one knows the difference, it has been given to them to know. What one does with this knowledge is the choosing between wisdom and continuing on the same path that they are on.
I do not intend to judge another mans servant, men walk in the light they have. I do point out that life in the Spirit is not one collision or happenstance, followed by another, but the blind will lead the blind. God does tell us what is to come, personally. Being prepared is the message of the Holy Spirit for believers this day. Be separate is the message for today. Separate from any and all that would diminish truth, or hold captive the weak. Those men that you mention did they preach the whole truth? Did they know the Holy Spirit in truth? Is the legacy of their ministry one that will stand in the days to come? I think not. They all passed along what they believed, salvation and water baptism but what of the weightier matters of the Holy Spirit?
The question arises, who is your brother and sister? What is being filled with, or having the oil to light the way to the place of the wedding? Have you been taught truth by all who have ministered to you? Hard questions, but what do you do with them? Not deal with them? Wait and see? Today is the day to acquire truth. Tomorrow may be to late.
I do believe that to whom much is given much is required. If you bear more truth than your pastor, your friends, then you become responsible to instruct them, speaking the truth in love. If they refuse to listen, they will bear the burden, they are deceived and robbed. Robbed of the Gown of righteousness that the Holy Spirit gives, the wedding garment, the proof of being prepared for the wedding.
L,J,P&HG
Dave
God bless,Dave and thank you for your answer. I am in agreement with you, and for my own part, I know what you are saying. There may well come a day when I am required to speak further to my pastor on the matter. Perhaps in truth, I am a little cautious because of past error, and perhaps I am holding back more than I should. The Lord will show me, as is His way, because it is not my heart to do so (hold back from Him, I mean) The sad thing is, that the state of the church here leaves me no options. In terms of being led by the Spirit, we know we have been led to this particular church and are there in obedience, so there may be a time when we do speak further on the matter of the baptism in the Spirit there. That is the Lord's time and leading. I appreciate you taking the time to reply, and your prayerful response.
Bonny,
Your church may be the best that there is in your area. You pastor the best guy in the land. But the reason that you are there at your church is what? Receive healing? Sit under anointed preaching apart from full truth? Enjoy fellowship of (like minded?) brothers and sisters? To be a light in the spiritual darkness? To be the voice of one crying in the wilderness? To light the lamp of truth?
If the Lord said to you: "You are their last best chance to walk in truth, for the time is short. Night comes and no man will work. Though they prefer old wine, it will not sustain (lift) them, though they prefer milk they have need of strong meat. You must conform to My (Jesus) image and likeness as the spirit of a man will be parched as the grass in a desert". Would your understanding of the importance of why, where, who, when and how much be opened? Is your understanding opened? Do you feel the heat of the fire within as you read?
L,J,P&HG
Dave
P.S. How can they hear without a preacher!
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