The question:
Do you not rather believe the Word teaches that it is actually the saints of the most high that Satan will wear out, not the lukewarm the wishy washy and the compromising,rather he won't have to bother with them because they will willingly take his/the beasts mark...
Those who do believe the deception,... if they live, will pay a heavy price in fear, doubt and temptation. They may be some of those whose heart will fail for fear. Certainly they will be among those who the Beast/Satan will make war with and prevail against.
Response comment from blog:
Helen,
And any who are interested, the answer is to large and important, and the scope to broad for just a comment answer. The short answer, and maybe that's all you wanted, is, a remnant will be saved. Perfect peace is for those whose minds are stayed on God, they will be hidden. Some of them will be martyred, they have a choice. The larger groups that will die are the lukewarm, those who had a reputation for being alive and are actually dead, most of Smyrna, money lovers, and Jezebel churches. And it was given unto him to make war with those saints, and to overcome them. But he cannot hurt the oil and the wine. Oil being wise virgins, wine being those who go through the wine press of wrath and live.
The questions are related to these scriptures:
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Answer:
No, he will not wear out the mind of those who walk in the Spirit. I do not believe that it is possible to wear out the "Mind of Christ", or those who have entered into that rest, in Spirit and in truth (not just saying it, but doing, they do the will of God). But a double minded man will not receive anything (protection, covering) from God.
Here is why:
2Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
Psalm 5:11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.
12For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.
These are the ones who can and will be deceived:
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: ... God.
This is what has empowered us to have confidence:
Matthew 20:23 And he (Jesus) saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:
John 16: 13 ... when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
John 7: 16 Jesus... said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (The same is true for us)
Isaiah 28: 9Whom shall he (God) teach knowledge? and whom shall he (God) make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (able to eat strong meat). 10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he (God) speak to this people (Baptism of the Holy Spirit).
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us (the ones who have the doctrine of the Father written on our hearts, by the other tongue giver, the Holy Spirit, the seal of our redemption) not, because it knew him not.
Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,
Therein also lies the difference. If people understood what Jesus/God meant they would be baptised in the Holy Spirit, be filled in the Spirit, and know the doctrine Jesus spoke of. Those who think they know, foolish virgins, will not escape. Their appointments very, hearts failing for fear, sword, famine, beasts, beheading, many missing the return of the Lord, no ears to hear. Some will hold fast to this: Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. These will die for their faith.
The letter to the seven churches encompasses all "Christians" some wise, many foolish, some barely saved, many won't make it. They are all grouped as "Saints". The barest minimum for salvation is; Acts 2: 21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. The opposite end of saint is: Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. These are all called saints biblically, from the least to the greatest. When we look at the church now we see it all, the good, the bad and the ugly. God sees it as well, that is, all those that have called on Jesus, from the highways and the byways, even those with out a wedding garment. Saints include; the strong, weak, wise, foolish, good, bad, blind, deaf, ought to be teachers/need to learn again, called, chosen, clean, spotted, wrinkled, those unto honor and those unto dishonor. God knows the Philadelphia church, those who are found worthy to escape the wrath to come. Their deliverance will be in different, hidden places, in the earth. (See Where's Waldo) The falling away is comprised of those who do not measure up, or hold fast to truth. Some entire churches will die for their faith, some entire churches will die not in the truth, all, not able to be delivered by their righteousness.
Revelation 2 &3 contains a summary of those in the churches who are called saints, that will fall or give their life to be save. The following is an edited version to clarify who will not stand and why (hopefully). Since there is no variance in God, we must judge ourselves that we will not fall into condemnation. We must compare ourselves to what is true in The Word, we must have ears to hear the Holy Spirit:
Revelation 2:1
Ephesus write; 4thou hast left thy first love (love of truth). 5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
8 Smyrna write; 9 I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan (under laws, or hold to fleshly salvation). 10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death (did not or would not have ears to hear, salvation comes by not denying Jesus), and I will give thee a crown of life.
12 Pergamos write; ..14 I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam (love of money, selling the spiritual), who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock (outcome driven religion) before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed (unclean, fleshly, perverted words) unto idols, and to commit fornication (one foot in the world, one foot in heaven, serve two masters). 15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes (abortion, divorce), which thing I hate. 16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
18 Thyatira write; 20I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess (false prophet, apostle), to teach and to seduce my servants (saints) to commit fornication (spiritual unfaithfulness), and to eat things sacrificed unto idols (meat, food that has spiritual overtones that compromises truth). 21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23And I will kill her children (in those churches) with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works (full truth is the only acceptable standard).
Revelation 3:1
Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead (works abound/no Holy Spirit, busy doing good work, not lead by the Spirit). 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die (no ears to hear every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God): for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard (when salvation first came you were drawn by the holy Spirit, but you turned a deaf ear, having begun in the Spirit, ending in the flesh), and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief (because you don't know and can't hear), and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
7 Philadelphia write; 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews (those who hold onto the Law, Jewish religious customs and fables), and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown (At this time Jesus is our shepherd, we need to hear and follow His voice, not follow any man). 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out (If you do not know or enjoy being in the Spirit, you would not understand what a blessing, how desirable this reward is): and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
14 Laodiceans write;...15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot (dutiful with no expectations, no joy of the Lord to give strength): I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17Because thou sayest, I am rich (blessed, well off, prosperous), and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked (deceived, not rich in faith, cannot tell good from evil, without a wedding garment/white raiment): 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold (pure truth) tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness (fleshly, carnal life) do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see (see truth, what is right, what is wrong). 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten (if you aren't right with God, and He is not correcting you, expect the worst, you will get the fruit of your labor): be zealous (get motivated) therefore, and repent (If you are stirred, feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, it is not to late to repent and turn). 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me (God's mercy endures forever).
This is the "alpha and omega", the undeniable scripture that speaks of deliverance. Some will say that this speaks of Israel, they speak out of their personal desires, flesh, because if that is true then all gentiles are excluded:
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: (The bride of Christ) 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered (Jesus). 3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon (Satan), having seven heads and ten horns (seven kings over 10 kingdoms), and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven (angels), and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness (green pastures & still waters, away from the sound of the archers at the place of drawing water), where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (6.2 years approx). There was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (the church/the bride of Christ) which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings (supernatural mobility) of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (3.5 years), from the face of the serpent. 15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If you are defiled by unbelief or receiving lies then even truth will seem not pure:
Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. For some it is easier to die for God than live for Him. Not that it is difficult to please God, it's just that difficult to die to your flesh. This is one form of a merciful deliverance from judgment for a person who has no ears to hear how to be delivered. Lack of understanding by those who know of the death (physical) will be fearful.
If you are not built on truth God sent delusion will certainly cause men to fall, the winnowing fan is a visual description of a spiritual truth:
2 Thessalonians 2: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed (3.5 years into the tribulation), the son of perdition; 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Matthew 3: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
The plainly written truth is concealed by men who bring confusion:
2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
This Ezekiel passage speaks of the type of people, who will be delivered. Their examples are well known to those who read the Bible. For us to find ourselves equal to this group in faith, righteousness and holiness will be the standards for deliverance. They are also the examples of the types of deliverance we can expect, attacked by Satan though we live because of our righteousness, riding about the storm in a safe haven sealed by God, or prospering in captivity. Ezekiel 14:12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,
13Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: 14Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. 15If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: 16Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. 17Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it: 18Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves. 19Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: 20Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness. 21For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast? 22Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.
An extended mercy:
Mark 13: 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
These are the classic forms of judgment, they are the tools of the destroyer:
Ezekiel 5:17 So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee: and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it. (They are what await the foolish and the deceived)
Limitations commanded by God to keep His from harm:
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Oil being wise virgins, a portion of "Saints", wine being those who go through the wine press of wrath and live, the 144,000, those to who it is appointed to live as natural men during the 1000 year reign of peace, the 1000 years rest in Spirit and in truth. (A time appointed for man, Mark 2: 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:)
Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Matthew 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
L,J,P&HG
Dave
P.S. I'd like to thank Ryan for his technical assistence, if I have any say about it, eveything in the millennium will work how I think it should.
25 comments:
just for the record these comments werent part of my question, but rather part of Daves response to my question:...Those who do believe the deception,... if they live, will pay a heavy price in fear, doubt and temptation. They may be some of those whose heart will fail for fear. Certainly they will be among those who the Beast/Satan will make war with and prevail against ..Daves response..oops!
"Some of them will be martyred, they have a choice???????. The larger groups that will die are the lukewarm, those who had a reputation for being alive and are actually dead, most of Smyrna, money lovers, and Jezebel churches.???? Scripture for this please...this all sounds good but please give me the scripture for it..I am always open to learning from the Word...thanks Dave God Bless
In other words where are the scriptures that counter act those below...
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years....hope this makes how I believe crystal clear...and as I said I am open to reading anything that counter acts these scriptures...not that any of it may be relevant to us Americans as we are more likely to be nuked by the russians and or the chinese, and or blown to smitherenes by the muslim terrorists...this could also be speaking of the Jews that come to Christ during the reign of the Anti-Christ...but hey I'm up for more clarification...thanks Dave
oh and you'll be glad to know that i have cut and pasted all your scriptures and am going through them with a fine tooth comb..so to speak..lol God bless
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (…..the church/the bride of Christ…..) which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings (supernatural mobility) of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (3.5 years), from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17And the dragon was wroth with the woman,….... and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ…..so are these that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus christ, whom Satan makes war with the luke warm saints, as you see it?
How do you relate the fact that all but one of Jesus desciples gave their lives for the gospel, was that their choice, or their calling, were they luke warm and therefore not deserving of God's protective covering...I am just trying to understand your way of believing...so please bear with me ok...many many saints give their lives still on a daily basis because they refuse to deny their Savour Jesus Christ, do they just not get it are they not "the oil and the wine" which you speak of here?...still just trying to understand as I have not heard this perspective before..
I have to tell you Dave that I have experienced first hand what happens when Christians are brought before Judges and authorities, some turn on others, some stand firm and are a living testimony, others cower and give in to the authorities.
I have seen God give this city an opportunity to stand for Him and for the right thing and the minute a Judge said, call your people off and if you don’t I will go after your churches, I will go to your church boards, I will increase your fines, I will go after your tax exempt status…what do you think they all did? They all called their people off, for the love of money and the love of the earthly kingdoms they have built for themselves…brother I tell you what the luke warm and the wishy washy will do, I have no doubt because I have witnessed it all already…they will take the mark, not arguments no ruckus…their pastors will just tell them, this is not the mark of the beast this is just modern technology, the catholic priests will absolve the people of the mark, they preachers will say "don’t listen to the fanatics, who would have their families starve, don’t listen to them they are mad. God doesn’t want you to go without food and loose your jobs and your lovely homes"….They will accuse the children of God of trying to cause disunity, because brother the religions are going to unite under one banner..
They have already started this process. The Catholic church would even unite with the muslims….The assemblies of God with the Catholics…I have seen these things first hand.
God’s children are not appointed to His Wrath, but are not going to be immune from persecution and tribulation…that doesn’t mean that God is not able to preserve them through it. However with so great a cloud of witness able to view us …let us not be unprepared for hard times for surely they are upon us…let us be prepared to run the race well.
Mark 8:35-38
“Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
36For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
The children of God don't have to fear persecution and tribulation, if they quit themsleves like men, be strong in the Lord and the powere of His might, not back down from their testimony and the Word of the Lord...and face the enemy..God will deliver those ones...I have seen Him do it! All Glory to His Holy name!!..Amen.. sorry I will quit with the comments...
Love in Christ
Helen B
Helen,
"Some of them will be martyred, they have a choice???????.
A few will have choice, the actions and beliefs of most will dictate their outcome. Many will not have faith. All things are not possible for them. Jesus walk through a crowd that wanted to kill Him. Having ones mind renewed includes the miraculous not limiting God sealing ones fate. Like Daniel's friends in the furnace. Our God is able.
Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Helen,
The larger groups that will die are the lukewarm, those who had a reputation for being alive and are actually dead, most of Smyrna, money lovers, and Jezebel churches.????
Revelation 2&3
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Judgment begins right there.
Helen,
In other words where are the scriptures that counter act those below...
Nothing counter acts, but fit in with. It would be like saying Rev 3:10 doesn't exist. There is a people who will be kept. Elijah saying, I only, and God says, I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal. God for His great name sake will keep a people like Job, Noah and Daniel.
Helen,
wear out the saints
Matthew 24:24...if (that is "IF") it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee (KEEP THEE) from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Luke 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19In your patience possess ye your souls.
I will post more tomorrow.
L,J,P&HG
Dave
Just before I checked my emails I was reading my latest Voice of the Martyrs newsletter about the Christians being martyred and persecuted in Pakistan.
Was I right in understanding Dave, that you were saying that true saints as opposed to weaker, lukewarm saints, will not go through tribulation and martyrdom? That they would be hidden away?
"The larger groups that will die are the luke warm, those who had a reputation for being alive and are actually dead"
I do not believe that Scripture supports this. (Please correct me if I have misunderstood you, Dave)
Rev 13:7 does not specify the maturity or strength of the saints in question - just says that the antichrist will be given power to make war on the saints.
No doubt some will be hidden away supernaturally at various times, fed supernaturally at various times, just as the Lord has always done, but that is for His purpose and times.
I think we only have to look at the Church in any persecuted nation NOW, to see a picture of what this global tribulation will be like under the antichrist. Some are kept safe and rescued, some are brutally butchered - it is the Lord's time and will which dictates this, not the level of a believer's maturity. Some Christians are martyred by their muslim families only days after they have converted, and are blessed to be with the Lord. Others are almost killed but the Lord preserves their life for His glory and to do His will further on earth.
So all those under the altar as mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11 wearing white robes have been 'lukewarm'? I think anyone who dies for their faith is not lukewarm, generally speaking.
I think we have to be careful not to think that having our life preserved on this earth is a 'reward' - being martyred in the tribulation and going to be with the Lord is also a 'reward'. As you wisely said, Helen:
"Howbeit we don't have to worry wether we be called upon to give our lives for Christ, or not, because He is able to keep us,wether in life or death. We like Stephen can see the heavens open for us at the point of our deaths, we can be anointed with Holy Ghost anesthesia...because God can do anything...Amen...all we have to do is be willing for what ever God appoints us to ..Amen"
Oh Dave, God Bless You.
This teaching is fantastic. I had some of the same scriptures recently, too. Thank you for taking the time (cause i know this wasn't a quick one).
Alex
A couple of Earnest questions for you brother Dave:
Does God Promise To Keep His Saints, His Elect, His Chosen, The Wise Virgins, From Physical Death?
Or is God’s promise to His children, His elect, the preservation of their souls, not necessarily the preservation of their bodies from physical death?
Psalm 121:7
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
1 Peter 4:19
Therefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
2 Timothy 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Was Timothy referring to God preserving his physical body here, or God’s preserving his eternal Soul?
Proverbs 16:17
The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.
Psalm 31:23-24
O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer......
Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that hope in the LORD.
Daniel 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Is the scripture above talking about two different sets of saints?
One group of saints being the luke warm who are overcome by the horn, and the other group the "oil and the wine" as you speak of them, who were kept from having to give their lives for their testimony and the gospel of Jesus Christ"???
Just something to think about. I have done an extensive study on just who the tribulation saints are, over the last 28 years, in fact it is still a work in progress and is on my foodforhungrysheep.com website, if your so inclined to go through it at some point...or not..God Bless
Helen B....
Dave as I have been going through the scripture you are giving in this post I feel it necessary to finish your quote, which I believe is important in order to fully understand the Word in this instance:
Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, …..”which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
What is this “Hour of temptation” that is to come upon the earth?
…I think we all know what it is, it is whether we bow to the Anti-Christ, deny our Lord and Savior and take the mark of the beast or not.
There are many times that our faith is tried, but this is speaking of one great time…..of testing.
James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
We are to count it a joy to fall into the times when our faith is tempted, not seek to avoid those times. If our lives are commited to Him, if we have faith in Him we will be overcomers.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1 Peter 4:12-19
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.
16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God ...
commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
The protection for the 3 Hebrew children in the firey furnace did not come because God hid them in a safe place so they wouldn’t have to acknowledge their faith and take a stand for their God, but because they stepped out in faith and obedience to their God as living witnesses, they were oil they were wine…there fore God gave them a covering and protection in the fire He didn’t keep them from the fire…David’s victory over goliath didn’t come because he chose to stay back from conflict, but because he stepped out in faith to prove to others His God could overcome the enemy …Daniel's protection from the lions came because he refused to deny his God…and God did not keep him from the lions He shut the mouth of the lions…..Amen..
Just some more things to think about..hope your not finding me offensive, bacause that's not my intention..God Bless Helen B
To quote from the blog
"Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
For some it is easier to die for God than live for Him. Not that it is difficult to please God, it's just that difficult to die to your flesh. This is one form of a merciful deliverance from judgment for a person who has no ears to hear how to be delivered. Lack of understanding by those who know of the death (physical) will be fearful." end quote...
The scripture please that says God going is going to give merciful deliverance to those who have no ears to hear His voice
Those who have no understanding of Him and His Word of Truth, are those appointed to the burning, not merciful deliverance are they not?
Many saints have already gone on to be with the Lord, and therefore have been spared what is to come, ..Do you truly believe that means that they were taken home because they couldn't live correctly before God..that they could not crucify their flesh?
God's children do not fear death, do not seek to escape it, because they know that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ.
However if one cannot crucify ones flesh now on a daily basis, then they do not have much hope of being kept through what is to come upon this Nation.
The crowns go to "The Overcomers"..Amen
May the body truly hear what the Spirit saith to the "Church"
"To him that overcometh"...
God Bless
Helen,
You asked:
so are these that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus christ, whom Satan makes war with the luke warm saints, as you see it?
Answer: No, these are the ones who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus christ and who are hidden, kept, delivered.
L,J,P&HG
Dave
Helen,
You asked:
How do you relate the fact that all but one of Jesus desciples gave their lives for the gospel,
Answer:John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? 24This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
A quick ratio: one of eleven, thousand at your side, ten thousand right. Some will be delivered to meet Him at His return, God has a plan.
L,J,P&HG
Dave
One last set of questions, please bear with me..: Regarding your quote: “Oil being wise virgins, a portion of "Saints", wine being those who go through the wine press of wrath and live, the 144,000”,..end of quote
Revelation 19:14-16
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 14:13-20
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord????
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Please help me here where does it say or infer in the above scriptures that the saints are being put through the winepress of the wrath of God, and escaping?
Is it not the tares that are put into the winepress of the wrath of God, it is not the tares that the angels are instructed to gather together first?
1 Thessalonians 5:8-10
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Am I understanding incorrectly from the above scripture that it says God has not appointed his children to his wrath?
God Bless you
Helen B.
No more comments on this particular blog...I'm done..thanks for being so patient..
Bonnie,
You asked;
Was I right in understanding Dave, that you were saying that true saints as opposed to weaker, lukewarm saints, will not go through tribulation and martyrdom? That they would be hidden away?
Answer; Saints are saints, salvation is the minimum to be called a saint. Saints all get paid the same, no matter how long we work, it's not a seniority system. It is a found worthy to escape system that works on truth and faith. Faith pleases God. Knowing truth keeps us from deception. God's word says, let the weak say they are strong, crying out in fear is sure to bring the roaring lions. Luke warm get spewed, dogs eat vomit. Salvation depends on their choices. I believe that half of those that look like virgins to us will live to see the Lord's return with natural eyes. Yes they will be escape death. Some will be captive like Daniel, some will suffer personally like Job, some will be delivered above the storm like Noah.
May you have ears to hear!
Dave
Bonnie,
You do not belive:
"The larger groups that will die are the luke warm, those who had a reputation for being alive and are actually dead"
I do not believe that Scripture supports this.
Answer;
Really? What about this parable? Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Looks to me that one half of those who we would call saints (Kingdom of God) God doesn't actually know.
Bonnie you said:
I think we only have to look at the Church in any persecuted nation NOW, to see a picture of what this global tribulation will be like under the antichrist.
Answer: The covenant that we are under now ends when the time of the gentiles is fulfilled (grace). When He who hinders (Holy Spirit) will let, no one will be able to aquire the oil of the Holy Spirit (foolish virgins). The beast/Satan will not be allowed to hurt the oil and the wine. Calling down fire and judgments return to the earth. The Lord is jealous for His son and daughters, it's just that everyone who says Lord, Lord doesn't get past what is truth. What is to come is unlike any time, before or after.
Dave
Bonnie,
you said:
So all those under the altar as mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11 wearing white robes have been 'lukewarm'?
Answer: No, not what I said at all. All those that died during this time period (saints) are under the alter. Some of them may be the lukewarm if they repented. All the lukewarm will die though, just not all to a reward. All who are there are under the alter are there because they died apart from the current covenant, or they would be present with the Lord. They all died in the Seventieth Week of Daniel. They must wait until a new covenant is put into place at the end of the Tribulation.
Bonnie,
You said:
I think we have to be careful not to think that having our life preserved on this earth is a 'reward' - being martyred in the tribulation and going to be with the Lord is also a 'reward'.
Answer: First, doing the will of God is foremost. Second, if you die during that time you must wait till it's over under the alter. Third, apart from being on Jesus left or right, or maybe one of the 24 elders, the next highest honor that I can imagine is this:
Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
A pillar in the temple of God, being in His presence and never having to leave. Doesn't that sound a little better, and please God as well. The reward is more than I can imagine, I love being in the presence of God now. Another point to consider is that during the tribulation those who buried their talents (eating and drinking), what they had will be taken away and given to those who have done well, and they will have more. If James and John wanted to sit on Jesus right and left, would it be wrong to desire to live to the end to acquire such a blessing?
To be found worthy, to stand before God. To see in the flesh the return of our Lord in glory and put on immortality. It makes it worth while to pray that I am worthy to escape the wrath to come!
Dave
Helen, You asked:
What is this “Hour of temptation” that is to come upon the earth?
Answer: Tribulation/Great Tribulation.
Dave
Helen,
You asked:
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord????
Answer: As opposed to death apart from the Lord.
Helen,
You asked:
Please help me here where does it say or infer in the above scriptures that the saints are being put through the winepress of the wrath of God, and escaping?
Answer: (It would be best if you would cut and paste what I wrote.)
I said:And it was given unto him (the Beast) to make war with those saints, and to overcome them. But he cannot hurt the oil and the wine. Oil being wise virgins, wine being those who go through the wine press of wrath and live.
Those saints are not all saints. The Beast cannot hurt the saints that God accepts as wise virgins, the oil.
Not every grape gets squashed in a wine press. The 144,000 in Israel live, sealed by God.
To God, having Israel turn to Jesus is big. The millenium is all about God's chosen people. God, who will not go against His Word: Romans 10: 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? God seals the144,000 preachers, the wine. The land of Israel is the wine press area. The language is figurative. Jesus, the King, doesn't actually step on people to turn His robe red.
Helen,
You asked:
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Am I understanding incorrectly from the above scripture that it says God has not appointed his children to his wrath?
Answer: That is true. Those that are with Him in the end are His children. As opposed to:Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
God's will or desire is that all men would be saved:
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Dave
Helen,
you asked:
The scripture please that says God going is going to give merciful deliverance to those who have no ears to hear His voice
Answer:Rev:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 3: 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
It is not a single scripture, but a truth and wisdom.
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth, be zealous therefore, and repent.22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith
Helen'
You asked:
Those who have no understanding of Him and His Word of Truth, are those appointed to the burning, not merciful deliverance are they not?
Answer: True. Only a remenant will be alive on the earth, 10% or so. Those that died, or were caught up plus those alive subtracted from the world population equals the burning.
Helen,
You asked:
Many saints have already gone on to be with the Lord, and therefore have been spared what is to come, ..Do you truly believe that means that they were taken home because they couldn't live correctly before God..that they could not crucify their flesh?
Answer: Yes I do, some. Do not underestimate the mercy of God. Or the lengths He will go to in keeping a promise to a righteous man (one who prays). Consider the thief on the cross. Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
Psalm 118:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Job 33: 14For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. 15In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; 16Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, 17That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. 18He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword. 19He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain: 20So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. 21His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out. 22Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers. 23If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: 24Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
Romans 9: 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Dave
Thank you for taking the time to do this, Dave.
I know that this is the very reason why we are here, to teach and admonish one another in the understandings of God. That the day would come when none will ask men, what does this mean, but to go to God and hear the very same things that the Lord has shown you in all of this.
Amen.
Ryan
Thanks for taking the time to clarify your points Dave. I will examine the scriptures further on those things, since I am still not completely understanding your answers/comments. (I certainly do understand that the tribulation will be a time like no other, but I think we do see the birth pangs, even now.)
Amen Bonny,
Every day the pains get closer and closer. Bonny, I really appreciate you carefulness to consider what you find written, as you alone are responsible for your salvation, let no man take your crown. I'm sure you know, none the less, the letter kills, but the Spirit gives/brings life/truth/understanding. It's just like saying Jesus is the way/truth/life. How can one separate the singleness of purpose? Having ears to hear is the faith/confidence in the Holy Spirit giving us the truth and not even leaning to our own understanding/conclusions.
I pray that God give you understanding in Spirit and in truth.
L,J,P&HG
Dave
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